Transcript:

Hello. This is Melissa. Hale-Spencer, the editor of the Altamont Enterprise and I am so excited about today's podcast because as we all know, we are in an increasingly polarized nation and we have with us two representatives from a group called better angels. One is Roger. I'm Caitlyn and he describes himself as red. We also have on the blue side, and I kind of hesitate to use these labels because I don't want to be increasing polarization, but we'll talk about that. We have Riley Heart and I found out about their group because they sent a press release and I just want to start the podcast by reading a quote that is on this release and it is from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address and that of course was on the eve of our civil war. We are not enemies, but friends, we must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will yet swell the chorus of the union when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature. So thank you for being here. And I'd like to begin just by hearing a bit about each of you and how you got involved in this movement. Thanks for having us. First

06:58                                         of all, I'm Riley and um, I, uh, you know, I do consider myself blue in terms of better angels, which means liberal or progressive or more democratic than Republican. So after the 2016 election, um, well even before it, but certainly after it, I was, um, a frantic to find something to do because I was, I was really worried about the country. Um, and I found an organization called the bridge alliance, which is a, a, a super group of now it's over 80 organizations, all of which are dedicated to strengthening America's democracy. And it's a bipartisan, a group. So I read about every single one of the member organizations trying to find things that, that drew me in that made me feel this was something worth working on. And I found a bunch of organizations that seemed great and they called themselves by partisan. But, um, but when I looked into it, they were generally a whole bunch of liberals and some token conservatives.

08:16                                         I'm working on something that they thought should be bipartisan, but this organization better angels. I'm from its board to it's sources of funding to everywhere that they can manage it. They have equal numbers of reds and Blues Conservatives and liberals. And I know that that was hard to do. I really respected that this organization had put in the effort to having true balance. And uh, the mission of the organization also called out to me, it's to depolarize America by, um, having people listen to each other, understand each other and talk to each other to be understood rather than to try to persuade or to try to convince the other side how evil they are or how ignorant they are. Um, so that really appealed to me. So you really take your citizenship seriously, you put that much work into finding this kind of an organization. What do you do for an occupation?

09:18                                         What in the rest of your life? When I'm in a career transition from being a database, he tech, project management kind of person. So taking a project management approach to finding an organization to volunteer with this, that's kind of who I am and I'm actually moving into a more organization building work and facilitation and um, I've done some mediation in the past and um, so there are a whole lot of things about better angels. That really was it really click with me. Yeah. So Roger, tell us a little about yourself and how you got involved in this organization.

10:04                                         Not a young man. I've been through a lot of elections over the years and it's, the rhetoric has always been ratcheting up and always made me feel less than uncomfortable. Um, but this last election was just beyond what I could bear. And um, the thing that made it even worse for me was I'm being conservative in some ways. Um, I was looked at as a trump supporter instead of just, you know, another person who, uh, had their own ideas and I wasn't supporting trump, I didn't vote for trump, so I felt this anger that was unjustified and, and I, I really felt like there had to be a change, um, even even in some of my own personal friendships, even my own home. Um, so one morning I have to be watching the CBS show in the morning and they had a piece about better angels and as I watched it, my eyes got bigger and bigger and then I jumped online and did the investigation and decided this was an organization that I wanted to be part of.

11:23                                         And what about you in the rest of your life? What is your career right here?

11:26                                         Oh, uh, I, I was trained as a mechanical engineer, but I spent the better part of my life doing sales work for a manufacturing company. I'm semi retired. I can't get away from it. So I'm still doing some sales work in soccer.

11:44                                         So tell us about this particular flyer that I got is for a session at the guild or them public library on September 20. And um, tell us what people might expect if they go there. What happens in one of these sessions? This particular session is one of two kinds of workshops that I'm better angels puts out and maybe later we can talk about when we're beholding in October at the Gilda Linden Library also, but this one is the skills workshop. It's two and a half hours and the, what people can come out with are some skills that they can use in their lives, talking with relatives, friends, colleagues, um, who disagree with them politically. It's, it's a very popular workshop right before Thanksgiving because the family gathered around the table and Oh my goodness, you need those skills so you don't want anybody leaving the table before but the pis come out. So, um, so this is to help with that. Well, I know the two of you can't recreate it two and a half hour workshop and a half hour podcast, but could you just hit the high points for those people that aren't going to be able to go to the workshop on what you teach? What are some of these basic skills that we seem to have lost our way with as Americans?

13:08                                         My experience, my perspective is it, it, uh, helps you focus on your own personal experiences and instead of using the words you're talking about how you feel, um, and your experience and why you feel that way when you're talking to someone who may disagree and, and it gives you an opportunity to practice active listening skills in which you, you listened well enough to be able to rephrase what the person told you. So they feel they're being heard and we all want to feel being heard. And when that, when that is recognized it, it opens up the conversation a little bit and makes you feel less animosity.

13:58                                         Yes. I would think that would work in any conversation, not just political. Yeah. All of these skills are completely applicable to any area of life. I'm better angels is just focuses on, on the political side of things. I think I'm an important skill here as also to choose whether or not to engage in a conversation partly by assessing what you think the chances are that the other person might be willing to listen and, um, and engage in a real conversation, but also ask yourself, what is my purpose in this conversation? Is it to change the other person's beliefs? Is this is not a skills workshop and how to change someone else's beliefs because that evangelical, we're evangelicals about depolarization. But you're not trying to get someone to agree with your viewpoint. You're trying to get people to understand each stand each other, see each other as humans, be able to have relationships, family relationships, work relationships.

15:10                                         And I think another thing people might suspect is that better angels wants everyone to end up being a centrist once every one to compromise. And that's not it either. We think that vigorous debate is very healthy. Um, uh, but not every. Well, I, I used the word debate. Uh, yeah, certain tossing ideas around while everyone is, I'm sticking true to their actual values is very valuable. So we are sometimes people might suspect we have ulterior motives of all kinds, but I think the fact that we have equal numbers of reds and blues from the very top, um, should help people trust that really we want everyone to, to be truly themselves and just see the humanity in one another and be able to, um, continue relationships with people they care about who happened to disagree.

16:12                                         So you're not trying to make a purple nation, you're trying to keep people communicating from their own viewpoints because one of the things that I find most troubling, and I just before you came today, looked up a lot of the most recent studies is just how as a society we're tending more and more to group with people who think like ourselves. The New York Times did this study county by county, uh, where they were, what they called landslide. And that was 20 percent victory in these certain elections. And even 30 years ago there weren't that many counties like that. And now 60 percent of our counties are like that and it's just, um, they, they're the series of overlay maps that the Pew Research Center has done with things like television shows or attending religious services. And these show always the same divisions. In other words, people tend to be listening more and more to people like themselves, which is of course made easier by the Internet because you can find a like minded group of people and communicate just with them. So do you have any kind of advice or outreach when you do these groups about not just the people in the room, but how to, beyond the Thanksgiving table, how to get people to, to know those who are not like them or to relate to those who are not like them.

17:49                                         Study this,

17:50                                         you know, we used to have community centers. They might be Polish, they might be tired, they might be other ethnic and people would gather community centers and have discussions and you were face to face and everybody had their own ideas that might be at the general store. Um, we've lost that. We've lost that. We've now retreated to things like the Internet and, um, and we're, we're grouping with those individuals. So, you know, my experiences rather mentioned that I don't start a conversation. I'm looking to change anybody's mind. I start a conversation to get to know someone and, you know, if we agree on things, then we agree. If we don't, then that's okay. I'm Riley and I had her own fate, our workshop. Uh, we both went to the first convention ever for a blue angels are better. Angel,

18:52                                         tell us about that. Where was it when,

18:54                                         uh, it was in Virginia. What was the name of the town? Harrisonburg. Harrisonburg, Virginia and Riley and I only got to know each other through phone calls and emails. Uh, she knew I was right. I knew she was blue, but we didn't know much more than that. We had a, we had a short lunch to make sure we could, we could write together and then we had our own workshop on the way to Harrisonburg. And uh, you know, when you're, when you're in a car to have you for nearly eight hours, you know, you got to know each other pretty well and, and we listened and you know, we're, we're still working together under the better angels banner and we've survived and you know, and we still laugh about a lot of different.

19:40                                         Yeah, I wish people could just see your faces and body language is what it is, what I would describe as a warm relationship. I don't see a lot of stiffness or pastoring, I see lots of smiles and I exchanges,

19:54                                         you know, and I'm sure we, we still have some basic disagreements about how things could be done, but we also have come to experience and know that we're both humans and care about things and, and, and, and that's. Okay.

20:09                                         So were there people from all over the country at this Virginia or gallery and how many of you were there? One hundred and 70 something.

20:18                                         Oh yeah, right on. So it was broken up into red and blue delegates. And then there were, were observers, what they called who were, I'm not declared, and I believe it was 136 delegates of which half were red and half were blue. And then the rest were observers I, and this was the, this was the first. So it was really a great event and it, and it was interesting because one of the things they wanted from it was basically our declaration of independence, we'll call it, um, and uh, it was, it was prewritten before the event and this is a citizens group, so it's run parliamentary procedure, um, by a red and a blue delegate who cochair. Um, and so we, we read through this declaration and there was a lot of concerns and a lot of questions about it. And so something that was going to be voted up or down and turned into beam in in just four hours, rewritten to a completely new and wonderful to documents as opposed to one. So it was, it was a, it was a great event over three days.

21:37                                         Yeah, it was democracy in action, I suppose. Um, and the, the group who redrafted it based on all the input was equal numbers of reds and blues. It was very aggressive and we had our own

21:48                                         very first works skill shop in the Convention for the folks like myself workshop who hadn't, who'd only just discovered and gotten involved.

22:00                                         So each, they repairs like you, people that didn't know each other from different parts of the country that were put together in order to know

22:10                                         you. Everybody could apply as, as an individual. Um, and then you, you were selected to join there. There is a phenomenon where there, there's not a letter, not a lot of red participation yet. That's something that's being studied in, in order to try and get more red folks. So right

22:32                                         from the top down it's equal numbers of reds and blues. But in terms of just who chooses to join, it's still more blues and reds. So why do you think that is?

22:43                                         Um, there's a lot of theories. There's a lot of theories. Um, you know, there's a theory that red folks, um, if they declare their rather then automatically they're trump supporters, which a lot of red folks are not trump supporters, but they still have their beliefs. Um, there's, you know, there's a theory that um, the blue folks enjoy this kind of community participation more than red folks, that there are somewhat reserved as opposed to blue folks. Um, but there's a lot of theories and we're not spending a lot of time talking to him

23:18                                         about the theories we're talking, you know, how do we agree,

23:23                                         reach out to these, these folks. And they were convinced them that this is a great opportunity.

23:29                                         There was recently a gathering of a meeting of all reds to, to brainstorm how to reach out to other reds because either these are reds who are in the organization and can tell, Yep, this, this isn't a, a trap. I think something's a. people might think Cheryl come in and it'll seem great, and then it will be turned into a, now we're going to convert you into blues, which it definitely. So you had mentioned Riley earlier, you're going to do another session, the two of you in Guilderland in October and that will be different than this September one. What happens there?

24:05                                         Well, actually, uh, Riley's a moderator, so riley will moderate the meetings, the workshop Riley will moderate and then do we have with other,

24:15                                         the one in October which is called a red blue workshop, has a co-moderator man named Rob Robertson who's in Massachusetts will be coming over to cool, moderate with me and that's a longer workshop. It's also I'm being hosted by the Guilderland public library. So they're the ones really making it happen, which we really appreciate. And I'm unlike the skills workshop which is open to anyone and however many people can fit in the room, which I think is about a hundred or something. So you usually draw crowds like that. Do a lot of people want to learn this and come in? This is our, this. So let's back up and just talk about the skills workshops. This is only going to be our second one. We held one in July and we had 20, somewhere like 25 lessons. And also the Guilderland public libraries. Well, when this. Well that one was sort of our soft launch, we do publicity there, right?

25:15                                         Because he kept doing it, it went well. There certainly were some people who are still a little skeptical at the end, which I think that makes sense until you go out and try this stuff. Um, I think some people also were imagining using it with Uncle Charlie, the particularly difficult person where, you know, this is something you should work your way up. Start start with aunt sue, who, you know, is more open minded, a little more open minded. Um, but we did get great responses and some people have since joined better angels. And uh, and so this time we're doing more publicity because we know we're confident we can handle the crowds. And the workshop formats were developed by bill doherty, who's one of the leaders of better angels. He's a family therapists in Minnesota and a professor of psychology, I think. And um, he really, uh, know he brought a formats that work for other contexts, brought them to the, to the political realm. And we think he's done a great job. So

26:31                                         we're, we're just one small group. This is a national thing where, so we're, we're getting started, but we participate in some conference calls in

26:44                                         they're light years ahead of us and what they've done. So this is really taking hold in a lot of places across the country. Do you both live locally connected just outside of Albany. So then in October this much longer session, you will be running it with a red for Massachusetts because you're trained as a moderator. Actually, he's a, in our moderator role, we're gonna play a neutral role. Um, so I won't mention what the, whether we match up red and blue co organizers to make workshops happen when we don't have an organization like the library to make it happen, see themselves. Um, but moderators are playing a neutral role. Um, so we will have equal numbers of red and blue participants, about seven of each. And we'll screen folks to make sure that they understand the goals. This is not a debate about issues, no one's trying to persuade anyone.

27:55                                         Um, but it's about listening and, and sharing why you believe what you believe so that everyone will leave with a better understanding. So we'll have these seven of each and then we'll also, we have room for quite a few observers to, and this might be people who are interested but not sure yet if they want to actually participate. It could be people who want to participate, but it's sort of a waiting list kind of thing. Um, uh, there might be people who are interested in maybe becoming moderators who want to see how this works, so all kinds of people can be. So do you have special training to be and is that provided also by the organization? It is. And they, um, they now have an online training so you apply and um, you need to have some relevant experience already either as a, either the public speaker or a teacher or a mediator or a counselor.

28:57                                         There are all kinds of, of experience that that can get you in. So you apply and if you're accepted then there are, um, there's an online training now so that as you listen to be friendly. Chester, I, yes, I went through it and it's 15 hours of video to watch. So it's a bit of a time investment and some reading and then nbn, there is a uh, web web conference call where, uh, you know, there's some discussion and questions get asked and things and then, and then you're blessed to go off and spread the word. So if all goes as you hope, this October session that the Guilderland Library

29:42                                         and you get seven couples are couples and then a full compliment of observers, what is the goal weight? What do you hope will happen? I how, how will that play out for the future?

29:59                                         Well, what we hope

30:01                                         definitely happens for every person in there is that they leave with a better understanding of the other side and including how diverse the views of the other side maybe. Um, and if there is any common ground to, to have identified and appreciated that. And do you want to talk about what, um, what might happen if people choose to continue the conversation?

30:25                                         Oh, well, the are with these programs. The hope is that we'll find a group of red and blues to work well enough and like each other enough that they'll become what we call an allies and alliances. These folks work together to go out into the community, whether it be with the politicians or with communications newspapers and folks like yourself to spread the word and start working in the community to depolarize and to show that, you know, red and blue can work together for common goals. I think from, from my experience, you know, where, where the polarization starts to break down is when people come to realize that, you know, myself, I'm self identified as ripe yet, um, there are many, a conservative stronghold so that I don't believe it. So if I was sitting in a car, so the way the workshop works, the reds have a conversation and the blues observed the conversation.

31:35                                         So let's say that the discussion is about abortion. And I would say I actually believe in a woman's right to choose and there'll be some folks in there that would say, well, why would you think that? And I'll express why take that. Meanwhile some loser observing that and they're saying, wow, so there's a red person who doesn't believe in that stronghold of conservative to some. And that's how polar ism starts to break down. People start to realize it's not we, and it's really not. We're a spectrum and everybody is somewhere on that spectrum. Are there individuals?

32:18                                         Well, we as a newspaper trying to provide a common opinion pages and it, what saddens me is over the 30 years I've been an editor here is how much nastier the rhetoric has become in our letters. How much less tolerant. Um, and we still have the open forum. Um, and I've always told people, you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. And what's changed radically in the last two years is when I try to correct them, packs where people used to be grateful. Oh, thanks for saving, I to look foolish. Now they become angry often and insist that I might have my set of facts, but they have their set of that and that's where you kind of lose the idea of having a common ground in order to reach some kind of consensus on. And I just wonder if any of your sessions address that particular sort of recent development in the idea of truth or facts. I would say

33:31                                         I would say that, um, that we in the skills workshop, um, we get away from, we have people deemphasize the facts because, um, well for one thing, facts that we all believe that facts are where we came to our, what we base our positions on. But I don't think, well, I'll resort to facts to say I don't think the research backs that up. That human minds are very good at rationalizing whatever we believe. So, um, facts aren't what's going to change someone's mind anyway. If that was your goal and if your goal is the better angels goal of understanding the other person better facts don't help a lot with that either. I mean, it can be that, oh, I see the other person believes a totally different set of facts to be true, so no wonder they know now the conclusion they come to make sense to me.

34:33                                         I was wondering how on Earth could they have come to this conclusion? Oh, well they're going from different facts, but that's really the only purpose. Facts can serve in this kind of thing where you're trying to build understanding. Um, there is another, uh, uh, effort that the leaders have better angels are working on, which is a new debate format for competitive debate in high schools and colleges. I don't know much about it, but so there, it's not as though they're saying we have to just ignore facts entirely because we can't agree on them. Um, but in these workshops, which is sort of the grassroots aspect of better angels that were working on, um, de emphasizing the facts, uh, can serve us conserve

35:24                                         our purpose well because people pick and choose or have already believed in their own. Fascinating. I'd love to hear more about a change in debate structure because that, I mean the old fashioned way of debating

35:38                                         is you have one person defining the terms and then each side weighing in, trying to convince with their views, but what would the new form you'll have to come back and tell you about it's being piloted. So I think it's still changing a lot and so they haven't been, the leaders haven't been sharing a lot of information with us. I think it's because it's not quite ready to be shared yet, but people invalidate debate. Circles are very excited about it.

36:02                                         That's the convention I only participated in. One of the early models were there. It was interesting. Um, so it, it was, it was more of a round I guess, than a direct debate. So the way it was, I don't know how it's been adjusted, but the way it was done was a speaker with stem that there would be a topic [inaudible] first speaker would stand up and it might be pro or con and individually they would present five minutes of their position on the topic. At the end of five minutes to the audience would, there would be a chair, a moderator, the audience could ask the moderator a question to ask the speaker, um, and there'd be around of questions and when those questions were done that that person would sit down and under be a five minute presentation by a person posing. I'm the alternate view. Uh, and at the end of that five minute presentation, again, the audience could ask the moderator questions to ask the speaker. So it disconnected.

37:17                                         Right? So part of the situation with our democracy is that candidates run against each other in debate format that encourages that kind of divisiveness or at least the way it's been used in very recent campaigns. And that format seems like it would be much more likely to elicit a sense of understanding of the other viewpoint interest.

37:43                                         It did work. I did see, I did see late, but so at the time intervals get smaller and I did see a, a minor meltdown at one point. I had a discussion with a moderator later about, you know, as a moderator, how do you, how do you decide where to step in and where I'm working. Yeah. It really was. I felt a much more informative than, and much more easy to listen to them. The typical political had a bombastic.

38:22                                         So does your group or do you as individuals have hopes that if you get enough grassroots support that you can change the national pattern at the moment? Um, the intention is for this to become a movement, not just an organization. So yes.

38:42                                         Yeah, absolutely. That's our, that's our ultimate home. Um, I'm just, you know, I'm hopeful that, um, you know, enough people will, you know, at least locally start to acknowledge and accept,

38:57                                         well, just what I've seen with youtube. I'm feeling heartened some. Thank you. Do you have any closing thoughts, either of you that you'd like to leave our listeners with?

39:09                                         Well, I can say that when I went to the convention in Virginia, I left realizing that I would much rather have a conversation with someone who disagrees with me, but he wants to listen and have a respectful conversation than somebody who holds all the same positions I do, but wants to tell me how to think and tell me how ignorant or evil the people who disagree with us are. So openness is.

39:42                                         So, you know, one of the things that was really a great for you at the convention was, was meals because we all ate meals together in a cafeteria and we all had our name tag and Our Name Tyler identified whether you're a red or blue. And every day I sat down at a table with a new group of people and we all introduced ourselves and we all talked about ourselves. And we all eventually got around to political discussions. And, uh, I never heard any raised voices in a room and I never participated in a single adversarial discussion. Um, and, and none of us knew each other. So that was really a moment where I said, this can work. It really kind of, um, there has to be a willingness, um, and I think like all things, um, no one jumps on the bandwagon and toll

40:45                                         gets going, you know, this has nothing to do.

40:49                                         Be Afraid of. Riley said it earlier, no one's there to change your mind. No one expects, no one thinks you're going to come in and come out. As you know, with another color. It's really about the polarization. It's really about reducing the rhetoric, rick and realizing that we're just people.

41:11                                         Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Now I'm going to make you pause for just to set the microphones or do you want us to do. Since you're so much taller than me, should you be sitting? If I sit, I'll feel free.