Transcript:

00:00:00                                 Hello, this is Melissa Hale-Spencer, the editor of the Altamont Enterprise and delighted to have her on our podcast today, Brian Barr. And we have our readers will be familiar with Brian because every year at this time and this week is no exception. Um, we have a story on a young man or young woman that our readers, if it weren't for Brian, would not know about and maybe other people wouldn't either. And this week we featured Giovanni Palmer, a young man who had grown a lot through Equinox and Albany and now has been hired as a youth leader there. And the reason we know his story and you do too is because of Brian. So I'm hoping you will start by filling us in on the ceremony that took place yesterday. Just tell us what happened yesterday.

00:00:57                                 I'm more than delighted to do that and thanks for giving me an opportunity to, uh, yesterday was. Oh, it's a tremendously exciting and important day for us at the Rotary Club before Albany because this was our 34th year of doing this. And why? Why it's so important is the rotary club, 34 years ago, decided that our youth committee would, would, would decide that how we would use our energies was to look for collaborating with the childcare agencies in the city of Albany, that we're taking care of the foster care children, uh, in, in a way that no other organization in the city was doing it for, for example, in the past. And it still goes on today. And deservedly so. We're so fortunate that around graduation time you have a situation where we're blessed with a young people who have incredible talents, uh, academically, athletically, etc.

00:02:25                                 And people in organizations are falling all over themselves to, to honor these young people with scholarships and with all kinds of, uh, uh, graces to, to acknowledge their accomplishments. But in the midst of this, uh, Melissa, we have a situation where there are children in foster care agencies such as LaSalle and St. Anne's community maternity did he serves as in St catherine's and equinox in, and parsons, a community maternity services that every day, uh, are, are just gutting it out and they're doing the job. But the community isn't aware that these youngsters, uh, had been taken from their homes, uh, oftentimes no fault of their own from their community schools, from their neighborhoods, from, from their friends, from all the things that are familiar with and in they're asked to live in foster care and they're expected to succeed in school. They're expected to do the ordinary things in here.

00:03:46                                 They have all these other major adjustments to make and in they do a. And not only do they do it, uh, they do it with, with an awful lot of resilience and persistence and they do it quite well. So rotary decided a lot of these young people either don't know about community civic organizations or they're indifferent to them and we wanted to turn that around and we wanted to turn it around on its head. So we said, we civic organization, rotary, we have good name, a good name in the community and we're going to take that good name and we're going to see if we can develop a partnership with these six childcare agencies. And what we're going to say is, look, give us, let's give this a try. Let's see if we say to you, look, you set up your own nomination process, send us one of your students and we're going to have a luncheon, a luncheon of affirmation where we asked you to send a student, have the student send parent guardian, favorite teacher, whatever, but we'll provide lunch.

00:05:11                                 And for the youth, for a five, a six, a people from that agency, lunch is on us. Uh, we're going to see about having some dignitaries there. We're going to see about providing some gifts, some certificates, maybe some proclamations from dignitaries in the community, whatever. But we're going to make this a celebration of, of affirmation saying to these kids, look, you matter, you're important. The community is aware of your presence and we're going to make this a a day that this young person isn't going to forget. So we did it the first year and this is the 34th year  and it's the only program  in the world. It's the only program in the world. A couple years ago, rotary international, we have a million subscribers to rotary international throughout the world in our international section, a rotary international wrote it up as the albany rotary club reaches out to young people in the foster care system and we made them aware that our club and rotary is doing something of this sort. I hope to have a regular article, a woman by the name of Susan Morse. She's one of our members, great writer. She's written an article on on this program, beautiful article and I hope to have that written in the in the, in the whole rotary international magazine. But anyway, I mean I. I digress into. You have to excuse me for that.

00:07:05                                 They were all questions answered. I had this list of questions. You answered the whole background, but I, I went through and looked at years of articles we've written and they stay with you. I looked up one abdul karim who was chosen by one of these agencies that will sell school and he said to me at the time, this award means a lot to me. He'd grown up in Bangladesh and brutal poverty had come to this country right around the time of nine slash 11 and suffered really very bad prejudice and he was saying how much this meant to him and he said, I was very shocked at first I felt I didn't deserve it, that I didn't show enough perseverance and it just, you could just over the years and talking to these kids and what that award meant to them, you can just almost feel a transformation, you know, feeling like they didn't deserve it. Then thinking about it going to the luncheon. So to circle back to my first question, tell us about what happened at the luncheon yesterday.

00:08:06                                 Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm still in. Thank you so much. Uh, for, for, for doing the article on giovanni. Uh, I spoke to him yesterday and he was so excited that sean had the interview with them and did the article I mentioned to you. I'm so thrilled I haven't read it myself because I, I just am saving. I'm savoring savoring my time with the article and I will read it and I'll pour over every word. Why haven't I haven't allowed myself the pleasure of reading it? Yeah. so you had some speakers yesterday. Yeah, we did. We did. Yeah. Yeah, I did. So we did. So anyway, we did have this special occasion yesterday. It was so much fun. It was so much. So the

00:08:56                                 kids had such a great time. So anyway, yesterday, uh, we had it, we had it, a logo, american legion cluB and we had all six of our young people there and they roll dude it up the way they felt comfortable and uh, the agency people were with them and uh, a couple of moms where they are and uh, the kids were all excited and everybody, the staff were just beside themselves because they take such pride that their kids have come such a long distance, you know, I mean in terms of emotional, uh, progress and acadeMic progress. So it's a recognition for them. It probably doesn't get a lot of. Melissa, thanks so much for bringing that up because that was the dual, a dual, a purpose of this was recognition of the young people, but also the collaboration, the partnership was with the agency because what a lot of people don't recognize in the community is the importance of this staff that work with this population.

00:09:58                                 Uh, our kids aren't easy. Our kids aren't easy. They come to us with a multiplicity of issues and uh, they're not getting easier. Regrettably. They're not getting easier by the time a youngster enters the foster care system, there's a real complex of issues and they really need skilled a professional assistance and uh, it's a real challenge, uh, to, to work with them and provide that support. Uh, it, it, it, it comes with a really a, a heavy cost in oil, oil respects. So the staff to see the young people progress and improve, uh, just brings such a sense of satisfaction to them. And it's hard for a in this, this, this society, it's hard for them to get that kind of feedback. So a program like this, a ignites them with the sense of satisfaction that regrettably, they don't receive enough. So one of the things that I'm really passionate about and I do workshops on this and whenever I can I try to speak to the issue is workplace morale and uh, it, it's programs like this and in workshops that I do on attitude and things of that nature.

00:11:20                                 Uh, I address that very issue. But uh, yeah, so they're really excited. so, uh, when the, the, the young people, a male and female were there. Uh, I have them, we do a little procession, we walk in and we go by the head table. So who was there was our mc was alyssa care capris and she's a from w rgb channel six news. She's the weather person. Early morning she comes from Oregon, was a meteorologist of the year out there. she's a New Jersey girl. She was fantastic. She did a beautiful job. I'm seeing. And then we had a mayor, kathy sheehan, uh, the mayor loves this program and what she said, a villa so, so on target. She said, you know, I'm in albany all the time and I'm a walk the streets of albany looking at things and being aware. She said, one of the things I really didn't have a full appreciation for was these young people.

00:12:25                                 Uh, they, they do indeed. Uh, as brian mentioned, they carry a burden, a speciaL, a burden, uh, that so many others going to school. Uh, I don't have to, don't have to carry with them. And she said I'm really, I've been sensitized to it and I really recognize that. So she made a wonderful greeting to the young people. And then, uh, we, we had ruth pelham from the music mobio oh, isn't she though? And she's delightful. So she went around, she talked all six of the kids and she got a little tidbit on them and then she woVe it into her own composition and she got us all singing and everything. She related to the kid and the kids love her and, you know, everybody loves route. So we had a lot of fun with her. And then, um, uh, and then, uh, uh, our, our mc, uh, she introduced a dea source and david came to the mic and he had a wonderful message for the kids.

00:13:32                                 And uh, he, when we did our little procession, they met every one of the persons at the head table, all the kids and david is so good with personal rapport, but, uh, the da then had a message for everybody in the crowd and then he introduced a bishop, america's howard hubbard and bishop hubbard has had something to do with every one of those childcare agencies. And in only his inimitable style, uh, he, he delivered real profound words and he spoke to the culture that is really eroding people's closeness with one another and community. And he reminded us that the isolation aloneness is what's a, uh, rotting out the core of our ability to, as a community, uh, be together and care for each other. And a lot of those institutions like the catholic church and even civic organizations, their membership is falling. That iS a yes. And he spoke to that when you spoke to him. So he had a message for all of us that were together and assembled and it was, it was beautiful. And then after that, um, after that alyssa Called us together

00:14:52                                 in the representatives from each agency came up and they told us a little bit,

00:14:57                                 a thumbnail sketch of each of the kids and then the kids came forward and with really ugly. They accepted the beautiful certificates we had in some of the gifts that we had for them and they were given an opportunity to say something if they want it.

00:15:14                                 Very nice. Very nice. Well, so just, if you could go back to the beginning with your life, not just this program, but I know you've had a long career in social work and you were once the associate commissioner of the state's office of children and family services. Just start at the beginning. What, like where did you grow up and how did you get instilled in you the sense of community service?

00:15:37                                 Oh, where, where were you raised? Well, I'm an albanian.

00:15:47                                 I am an albanian. And uh, I, I think, uh, I don't know what my mother said. I was born in social worker,

00:15:59                                 well I guess a mother audit now. So even when you were a kid, you were trying to help other people and their biggest fear was I was going to give myself away

00:16:10                                 a us when he put me in the playpen and uh, uh, I was poor. Well, I wasn't born but we lived early ages on morris street and uh, they put me in the playpen and people would walk by and I was the one that would be in the playpen. They'll be reaching out.

00:16:27                                 Everybody was happy to go with anybody connection into a happy little guy. And so what we had to go. You went to the public schools in albany incentive? Yeah, the vip kid. And then I went to cba. Yeah. And a christian brothers academy. I'm went to christian brothers academy. And uh, so did the catholicism play a big part in your sense of service? It did that with, sure, sure.

00:17:06                                 Inculcated in my, my, my bloodstream. Sure. Absolutely. And then I went to st michael's college up in winooski for while that was beautiful. It's a great service, a religious order in the, in the, uh, it was an Alabama. Um, and then, uh, I did my master's work in social work over in boston college, the jesuits, so a heavily influenced. And then, uh, I uh, uh, came back and took my first job in social work with catholic charities and then I received, uh, a apprenticeship scholarship with a state department of social services and I, that's when I went to boston college. And then I came back and worked for the state for a couple of years and then I went to school and I was there for 30 years. Tell us about your role there as the director of clinical services. And I was head of the mental health clinic, the psychiatric psychological, social work services and built the clinical team, uh, to the point we were recognized as one of the most outstanding in the nation for its quality. And, uh, uh, it's a, a durability in terms of being able to have a, a, a, a, a quality staff that had endurance in a quality as far as, uh, uh, people that had credentials and longevity because the problem with the mental health field was

00:18:59                                 jumping from place to place. The turnover. Lacking consistency. Yeah.

00:19:04                                 But we were noted for a clinic that when people work there and people were of good caliber, they stayed.

00:19:14                                 How did you get them to stay? Because I would imagine it's a career that has a lot of burnout. Yeah. Just such stress is one of the things that were

00:19:23                                 very fortunate, very, very fortunate. Uh, I worked with the christian brothers. The christian brothers have a great, uh, a great mission statement, a great philosophy, and they create a great middle year for, for their staff. And I was fortunate in terms of the people, uh, that I was able to, uh, with the people that I was working with bring in to recruit for the individuals that bought in to what we were about a great believer in relationship. My sense was we worked with adolescents in my belief was that when all is said and done, because I lived through all the phases of, uh, of, uh, the models, the freud in the anti, the post fraudy and what have you, all the different modes of looking at treatment was when push comes to shove, it's always relationship

00:20:28                                 what's going into the sink. So regardless of the particular model you feel at the bottom line is relating to the child that you're working with.

00:20:37                                 Yeah, actually you can do anything. Turn them on their head, flip upside down, whatever. It's your relationship with that youngster built on your trust, which flows through your care for them. You're interested in them, you, your belief in them as a person and your, uh, your, your capacity to see their worth and your desire to see them do well and your persistence in seeing that message through, in your interpersonal relationship with them. And as long as that flows and that's sincere, it's genuine. There's going to be progress. So whether you're, your style is confronted to whether it's passive or whether it's going around, whether it's going through, regardless if it's relational, you're going to be successful. And that was, that was our approach, uh, in it were enormously successful, enormously successful, and our kids did, did very well. But to get to your question in terms of how, how were we able to retain quality staff? I think the people bought into that. They believed in it and they want it to be a part of it. They wanted to stay with that because they saw in other places there were these turnovers and uh, people didn't treat staff that way, so we didn't just street our clientele that way. We treated one another that way. It was, our belief was that's how you treat people

00:22:31                                 and you were sort of the linchpin because you were there for years and years and have a belief in that whole philosophy. Then it got to the point. Yeah.

00:22:38                                 For example, and I don't mean this in a harsh manner, but uh, people, when they did decide to leave the worst thing in the world, I got to go tell him,

00:22:53                                 debra, I'm getting married and moving to California for me to go tell allegiance and loyalty would be anything wrong if I send a Proxy to California, you know, because they knew I cared so much about them in their contribution to the, uh, to the organization and how important they were. But what I was trying to, I was meaning to say to you, melissa was in terms of my attitude, my philosophy toward suicide I want to get to suicide was that was another topic just to let listeners know that asked brian

00:23:46                                 if we could interest, because I know for both of us it's very near to our hearts. So I will get, I will get right there

00:23:55                                 with the adolescents thing I want to say to you about adolescence was my approach to adolescence was working at lasalle with adolescence. Uh, was. This is not a phase where you work with adolescents for a couple of years and then you've completed your, your, your, your, your hitch or your lesson on adolescents. Adolescents is a lifetime work. Uh, so if you work there for 20 years, if you work there for 30 years, have you worked here for 40 years? Uh, it's, it's a whole life's work because some people approached it. Well, I can work there for a, for a year. I can work there for a couple of years and I know all about adolescence and my point was anybody who worked there, a, you've just embarked upon a life's work. Adolescents doesn't start and end with studying and for a couple of years and now you've finished with that lesson and you can move on to something else, family therapy or a marital therapy or something

00:25:09                                 like that. Time in any person's life. It's really coalesce as a personality. So I can imagine it could be a lifetime or trying to sort that out. But what I want

00:25:21                                 tell you my day about suicide, is that okay to switch because it fits in with the adolescent thing. What I wanted to say well about that was, uh, interestingly, uh, my 30 years as the chief of the clinic, uh, we never had a suicide and uh, we had many youngsters who were a suicide, a prone, uh, we had many youngsters that I had to make the call in terms of, uh, uh, would we bring them over to the, uh, emergency room and things of that nature and that we had to a medicaid and things of that nature and a tough work.

00:26:13                                 Well, yeah, troubled kids that have troubled labs travels to begin with is why they're there. And that is a remarkable record. Thirty years suicide.

00:26:23                                 That although I never, never bragged what about it, uh, because, uh, it's not something to brag about because, uh, as I knew then, and I know even more now after losing my own, my own son to suicide was a nothing, nothing to brag about. And uh, nothing one can really take a take pleasure in because there are factors we still don't know a at play in terms of suicide. But that was one of the hardest things, melissa, in terms of being a professional, being a mental health professional, being in charge of a psychiatric clinic. That was a bitter pill to swallow when we lost her son, kevin to suicide was a holy mackerel. I'm as close to being on the inside of this as anyone. Uh, how the heck could this happen to my own son? It was a very bitter, bitter pill, a tough time

00:27:34                                 digesting it. In addition, you have an added layer. Yeah. In addition to all the other. Well, so tell us how that is folded and how you've managed to work through that and kind of cause you give seminars and talks to help other people. just, if you could kind of walk us through how that happened and how you came out the other side. Well, I don't know if I ever came out the other side.

00:28:00                                 Uh, but, uh, I know what you're, I know what you're getting at.

00:28:05                                 Uh, uh, it, um, it, uh,

00:28:19                                 it's something that, uh, uh, occurred. Uh, I learned an enormous amount about the subject.

00:28:33                                 Um, and, uh, uh,

00:28:42                                 I'll be forever grateful, uh, to kevin, uh, our son that, that we lost who was 18 for oil that he, he gave us a, he was a terrific, terrific kid. And, uh, you know, those who have lost loved ones to suicide, we will have that reflection, I think with our loved ones. And uh, that's, that's, uh, uh, that's what they, they leave with us. Even when we're at our realistic assessments of them, we, we can see the difficulties and the personal problems and all we still, uh, we can see through and in the love and the, the great qualities that they possess. But kevin, uh, uh, if you have time for this,

00:29:42                                 I'll share with you a, he was the youngest of three and, um, was, uh, for the most part, uh, uh, his upbringing was pretty, pretty, pretty usual. And, uh, he, he was however, very, uh, very sensitive boy. Uh, it's kind of like an empath. He felt family pain, uh, more than anybody else in the family. It was just very, very sensitive and, uh, in tune with what was going on. And, uh, he, he would, uh, he would feel things and that was a great quality in a very sensitive, uh, I was thought he'd be great social worker, you, he'd be the best of us, even the best of us, uh, if he chose that path and that's how he was, he didn't have lots of lots of friends, but the couple that he had, I mean, he was just a, he was a great friend. He was a great listener and a friends would talk to them and share with them.

00:30:52                                 And I mean, it was just fantastic. So proud of his and his loyalty to his friends. And, and one thing that, uh, uh, his mother always a remarked on, uh, when he was a little guy, one of his friends, he, he lost, he moved away, his name was scott and his family moved away and how upset kevin was when his, his Boyfriend moved away and that really, really rocked him. Separation took, took a lot out of them. And uh, uh, that's, that's the way he was a, his two other brothers and very nice kids and very, uh, sensitive themselves in their own way. But, uh, they would have rolled on deeply. So, uh, anyway, uh, uh, things, things were going. And then, uh, uh, he was, I think it was like in his 10th, 11th grade from now, mistaken that's gillerman high school. And I was down at work sitting in my office and the phone rang and it was the school and they called me and they said, mr.

00:32:20                                 Bar, you have to come up to school right away, uh, your son, uh, is in the principal's office, the vice principal's office. And he's been busted for, uh, for a smoking pot. And I said, okay, you know, there was no discussion. Just that was the announcement. And I had to get up there right away. They said, okay. So I hung up the phone and, uh, headed out of my office and grove up a Washington avenue extension and remember this like it was yesterday, you know, instead said two oceans were colliding in. One was a, uh, you know, I was furious, a, you know, smoking pot particularly at that time was a real. No, no, he was really angry and they just want them bothering box. I didn't know that he was doing that. And then the other one's melissa was a sense of relief because for a while prior to this, things have changed with him.

00:33:23                                 He had gotten moody. Uh, we knew something was wrong with him. He wasn't communicating with us, so we knew something was wrong and we had reached out to him. We had done all kinds of different things within the house trying to draw him out and what have you. I couldn't get to them. so my mother, my wife couldn't get to them, etc. so there was kind of relief that old boy, uh, the puss is finally come out and we're gonna get somewhere else and now we can be of help to our son and we can get in there and we can find out, get an action plan and what have you. So there were those two colliding emotions, you know, mad. And at the same time, relieved because now maybe we can get at it. So anyway, I got up there and uh, sure enough, they uh, uh, uh, he reeked of reeked of marijuana.

00:34:20                                 And, uh, uh, I said to kevin, what, what's going on? A new to talk and a school didn't want to tell me much of anything. And uh, he said, well, I know something's going on here. So a school people left the room and I talked to him alone and I said, kevin, what, what is it? And he said, well, dad, he said, uh, uh, I gotten, I sitting in school and there's this girl sitting in front of me and she's kind of cute, interested in her. And he said, I just stupid, stupid, stupid. I don't even want to come on, share it with me. So. And now I have good relationship with, with kevin, and were very, very close and a sort of distant with, with my wife. uh, because, uh, that's sort of just the way it was when he was a little guy.

00:35:23                                 He had a little speech, she was slow in his speech and she had to bring them to the speech teacher and so she had to do things that are tough for any parents do, but she fell on her so they had a little, little tension thing there and I happened to have an easier time relationship with them. So anyway, so he said, yeah, he did well, I did stupid things and I roll up through things to get her attention. And he said, well, I said to you that way, you know? He said, yeah, but the bad thing was she happened to be the girlfriend sky super jock. And he came and he told me he was gonna kill me. He said, you're really gonna mess me up. Dad said, oh geez, I don't really essentially said he was scared. And I said, oh. I said, well, you know, you'd be sending anything. No. I said, well, let me sue, let's talk to. So I talked to the assistant principal, came in and he said, look, I said, my son tells me that he's really scared. This episode happened and he said, well, I'll look into it. Well, he was going for five minutes and he came back. He said, there's nothing to this. He said, nothing. Don't worry about it. And your son's suspended for savannah for a week.

00:36:56                                 So anyway, I brought him home and my wife was home waiting for us and we sat on the couch and it wasn't the worst thing. In fact, in many ways, that relief that I felt was justified because it was the first time in a long time he talked to us. He was open and told us stuff and we had tried to get him to agree to go to somebody, a counselor talk about what this was bottled up in him. And while he wouldn't do that, he did agree to go to a psychologist for an assessment at least. So that was positive. Not for counseling enough for any more than one session, but at least it was something, it was a good session. So it got them to do that. And uh, and again, he told us about stuff that he hadn't told us about before.

00:37:57                                 So we were one step to the good, got them to go to a psychologist. Uh, he came out of there and he said, dad, he said, never again. he said, look, you got what you want it. I went, okay. I said, yeah, thank you for doing that. He said, but never again, will I go, well, he wasn't getting. He was, he was ticked, but at least, uh, so, uh, uh, he did that. And then, uh, and then, then he saw and went back in to a nutshell and what I've said, melissa, when I, when I talked to the kids and talk to different folks in a developed into my, my, my, my talks is, uh, this is, uh, this is a fragile vulnerable time, that period of suspension, expulsion, whatever you want to call it. But from the point of leaving school to coming home or wherever a youngster goes, schools, you know, they don't like to admit it, but they experience a sense of relief, real relief because these young people there a problem, you know, and there's no shame in admitting in, uh, their problem.

00:39:26                                 They're causing a lot of tension, a lot of friction, a lot of uptightness in, in when you can discharge them, you relieve a lot of that. And there's no, I mean, I come from that world. So there really is, and again, there's no shame in that. That's a human emotion. However, uh, what happens is when the youngster returns to, goes to the family, what have you, and there's no conduit of, of anything, uh, he or she is there in that, in that nest, and those folks have now a ticking time bomb, a real ticking time bomb. And for, for a youngster, uh, when you think about it, of course you do, you're aware of these things. But for a parent that's under siege and dealing with all this, uh, for the child, their life has revolved around school, which is a mental phenomena of everything is I get up because of school, I am thinking about what am I going to wear a will I have anything to eat before I go, uh, who am I going to meet or who will I avoid meeting?

00:41:06                                 How will I get there? A will I get on the bus, if I get on the bus, who will I sit with? Won't I sit with, uh, who, who will I see? Who will I avoid? Uh, who this, who, that welcome, who will I walk when I get in the car? Will I do that? So everything is functioning around that phenomena. A thousand and one things. When I get to the door, will I walk in entrance that entrance? who will I stand next to? A, how will I smell? How on a smell, all those kid things. The whole phenomenon is based upon the school, provides a structure, a structure. When I walked down the hall where I work close to the world in the middle of the hall, who will I see? Will it keep my eyes down, up? What a whole structure. The whole world revolves around that.

00:42:02                                 Now you pull that out, right? You pull that out of their life and then they're just, they're holy mackerel. I mean, holy macro. Uh, so I mean, they're not even aware of it. What, what's just happened? So you've got a monumental whole, uh, in that, in that is, that is huge. That is huge. So, uh, that, that certainly was a situation with, with, with, with my son after the visit with the psychologist, uh, in consultation with him, we made the decision, he, he, uh, advised that kevin is his ego, his self esteem was being beaten up in school, was being beaten up and that he recommended that an adult education course, something of that source who sort would be preferable at this point. We agreed. Uh, and that's the course we took a. So we tried that, that did not work, a retried work, some kind of work, uh, that didn't work.

00:43:27                                 He started to get increasingly paranoid, increasingly withdrawn, isolated from what few friends he had a until one day he came to me and he said, dad, would it be okay if I have my friend stay over? Well, we sort of celebrate it with, uh, with joy because I hadn't heard that in quite some time. So of course we said yes, that would be wonderful. So his friend came, stayed over downstairs, nice area. And, uh, um, you know, uh, as a parent, I'm a certain hour in the evening when something doesn't feel right in your home, you just have that sense, right? The antenna goes up. Well, it went up and I went downstairs to check and I'm there. His friend was asleep and kevin wasn't there. So I looked around the house, couldn't find him, went down, woke his friend and said, hey, where's uh, where's kevin?

00:44:52                                 He's, well, I don't know, mr dharia said that we were watching the movie and we fell asleep and I don't know where he is a. I said, oh, so I went upstairs and I looked again and couldn't find them. And I looked out over the carport to stead one car and it was going. And hemolysis is not the type to a, he wasn't an actor outer, um, that wasn't his, that wasn't his profile. Uh, so the, the car was gone and uh, perhaps we no idea where you would go with it and uh, uh, say you just had a weight, just, you know, the, you know, the parent thing, you wait and wait. So wait until 4:00 in the morning when the phone rang and barbara and I, uh, uh, we reached and we answered the phone and it was the, uh, uh, it was the police and they said, uh, Mr. Barr, uh, your son is down at st peter's and uh, he's a, uh, going to be a stitched.

00:46:17                                 And uh, he was, uh, picked up, uh, by the police going through the del mar corners, you know, the four corners in delmark or the police hang out, create catch to get people going through there. And uh, they should, uh, he was, uh, picked up that because you're going too fast. He was going too slow and the reason it was going too slow was he cut himself and he'd lost blood and he was a logging along and that's where they spotted them and wisely followed them, pull them over and they said he was bleeding. They run them. So we, uh, we said, well, we'll be right there. So we rushed out of the house and rushed to get in the car. Well, it was, we stood in the driveway. Note her last chuckled out because it's so long ago. Uh, so anyway, we came back in the house and called the cabin.

00:47:24                                 We got down there as quick as we could. Uh, and this is the, that uh, I think, uh, I learned so much from, from kevin and I think it's been so helpful, melissa, to uh, two kids in not just kids but to the suicide field and I get concerned when sometimes people don't hear it and other times they hear it and they hear well. And uh, in some I've gotten feedback that it's been more helpful to some people than anything they've heard. But anyway, when I got down there with my wife and we talked to people, he was in one of the trauma room done on the stretcher and they let me go in and uh, he was laying there and uh, they were getting ready to stitches risks. What he had done was he, uh, he got in the car, uh, and he drove out to factor park and he got out there with the intention of a.

00:48:31                                 Because he had been out there, I guess a week earlier, something with one of his friends, but he had been out there and his intention was to drive off the cliff and take his life. But when you get out there, apparently the park rangers had put a barrier up. So he, uh, uh, he decided, well, I can't, I can't just drive off the cliff, so what I'm going to do is, uh, he, he got out of the car and he found a coke bottle and he smashed it on the barrier and slashed one wrist. And then he slashed the other end. He watched himself bleed, but he didn't die, so he didn't die. And then he said, well, I guess I'll go home and, uh, I'll figure something out so we get back in the car and that's when he, you know, he came down to the park hill and stopped and stopped by the police. So when I went in to the trauma room and he was on the table, uh, I held his hand and melissa and he looked up at me and this just chills me to the day. And I held his hand and he looked up at me and he said, dad,

00:50:03                                 just want to die.

00:50:07                                 I,

00:50:09                                 I couldn't believe those words were coming out of my son's mouth.

00:50:17                                 I just couldn't believe how could, how could I know? My son, he just wanted the die, but he was so he was hurt. So he wasn't kidding. He was not kidding me. He hurts. So for ms dot very toes, he really wanted to die. I mean, he really, really want to die. And, and I understood totally, totally. And, and that's how great his pain was. So you know, when people say they say, oh, this person was a coward or this person was a hero, or this person was there. I heard about once someone was talking about someone, a coach that taking us, buying from a, you know, they don't understand that this, this suicide. It's something nobody would wish for. This know. I spoke with a young woman. I did a program with her once and she was so mad at her father was a shoe in mad at him for years, for years because he, he died from suicide and she said to me, she said, I can't forgive him.

00:52:15                                 He left four of us behind and my mother had raised to seeing such a mean, so be it, and I said, you know, tell tell me a little bit about him before this. And she went and she told me what she knew of them will kind of a person was what kind of work he did. And I said, you know what you're telling me about, about him. Was he the kind of person, you know, don't tell me about the after, but tell me what, what he was, what kind of person was he? The kind of person that would do this to somebody? There wasn't the kind of person he was and she said, no, I don't know. I said, what do you think? That's, that's what he would do. Then that that's the kind of person that would leave you and your brothers and sisters like that and his wife that he loves so much that he married her and had shown him is will never thought of it that way. Think of it that way.

00:53:31                                 So your point is that the person isn't just such great pain that it's, it's nothing about anyone else or hurting anyone else. It's about just trying to end the pain,

00:53:42                                 that's for sure. Sure. I did in such excruciating pain that a person, that's what suicide is. the pain is so excruciating that the person. It's not a matter of choice. That's what suicide is. that's the disease of suicide. That's, that's suicide. You know, in all those years she wasted, you know, hating him in despising how he left the family and what kind of shape. But he wasn't the kind of person is she analyzed his life that would do that to his family. You know, this was a decent human being, but the ravage of the disease, you know, but we wouldn't, we wouldn't call them out if it were brain cancer, we wouldn't think to call him out from dying from brain cancer and call them well, these things, but we don't hesitate with suicide. So yes, I mean, you sell iT off very nicely. You're right. So that, that's, that's my point. And uh, you know, that's what I have tried to, to make a relevant when I, when I talk with, with people that suicide, it's different in it and it's different than depression. It's another level that means a distinction because lots of us have depression, you know, god forbid anybody have depression. It's a horrible condition. It,

00:55:37                                 it's horrible. There are more and more in people that are suffering from it. And you look at the numbers are astounding how it's increased.

00:55:46                                 Cool. Fortunately, thank god one can have depression in live suicides. Fatal condition is fatal, terminal suicide, dying from suicide, you know? Uh, so, uh, in what, what concerns me is a melissa and I, and I've written to the, to the people and the federal government and the state people and I've, uh, the state mental health people, I, I've taken them to task on this, uh, not in a hostile manner, but uh, when we put oil or literature out talking about suicide is preventable, how to prevent suicide and oil. I say to him, please don't put it out that way. Put out. We may prevent suicide, may prevent suicide. We don't know that we can prevent suicide.

00:56:58                                 Oh, I see. By the, by that wording, you think it's putting guilt on people that have no do no recourse. I understand what you're saying.

00:57:07                                 I know hundreds of workshops and I do workshops. I never tell people that you come to my workshop and I gotta tell you how to prevent suicide. Wasn't telling anybody how to prevent suicide. First of all, we don't know what causes suicide. Nobody knows what causes suicide. I mean, nobody knows what causes suicide. I can tell you what we, what our suggested as some of the, the possible symptoms of depression, suicide in your family, mental illness, but how many of us have mental illness? I mean, holy mackerel, you go up and down this block. You've got a whole bunch of us right here. You know, we might have a couple of ourselves, mental illness, nothing wrong with that. I will listen probably a couple of times around here. We have alcoholism, you know, so big deal. Uh, we, we work with, we deal with it a mean that we're going to die from suicide, uh, but, uh, that, that's the way it is.

00:58:16                                 Uh, but suicide's different. There will be, some of us will die from suicide. That is yet to be teased out. So anybody that comes around and says, hey, come to my workshop and you're gonna walk outta here and you won't suicide. Let me, it's not fair. It's not fair to two people to a thank you. You keep doing this and they'll never be a suicide in your life or your family's life. That fear and it leaves behind people thinking, geez, if I had gone to one more workshop, I wouldn't have lost sue, I wouldn't have lost frank go.

00:58:58                                 So one of your goals is to not just lift the stigma of suicide, but to live the blame or the guilt that often goes away.

00:59:08                                 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, one of the things is, uh, uh, I, I think we've gotten better at it, but, uh, it used to be a, how many times people would say a,

00:59:22                                 uh, uh,

00:59:27                                 like at the, at the casket or at, at the surface. Uh,

00:59:34                                 uh huh.

00:59:37                                 Angry at them.

00:59:41                                 You

00:59:42                                 really, you must be angry at them.

00:59:45                                 Uh,

00:59:46                                 you get that. Well, if you lost your loved one to cancer, to pneumonia, are you angry at them? That's a heck of a thing. Uh, the person was sick.

01:00:08                                 Suffered like, what's true? I mean, you heard me telling you about my son and they brought up and say, I just want to die. I'm going to be mad. A cute little break.

01:00:30                                 I mean. And then the other, you know, is a, the thing about the guilt that you just a raise so, so appropriately with people say, uh, you know, how you dealing with the guilt,

01:00:44                                 we shouldn't be dealing with guilt. You shouldn't kill religion. When I saw the beautiful care of my wife took of kevin, uh,

01:00:58                                 I mean he was progressing in his mental illness. I mean, he ultimately was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but the beautiful care she took of him, uh, as she absorbed, uh, his, his growing hostility, growing paranoia. Uh, it was amazing, you know, I mean, she always could have that. Thank god you were there to contain them. And I had a for all back in an oil that, you know, that was very nice, but she, the front lines, she absorbed all of this stuff, you know, and then somebody to say, how are you handling the guild?

01:01:44                                 Why would anybody feel guilty?

01:01:46                                 But people in, in not to, not to blame anybody because it's coming from a good place and they're just trying to be solicitous. Uh, and it's just because the information's not out there, you know, and a better they say that and then turned their back on you. But, uh, because at one time, I mean, you couldn't even get buried in hallowed ground. Remember,

01:02:13                                 newspaper over 30 years, people used to think it was outrageous, the liquid even write about suicide. But things are

01:02:20                                 changing and opening up and your voice is certainly a strong one. And thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I'm sure. I'm sorry. Oh my gosh. I just a thank you.